TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 17 Mar 2007, 14:17

 Posted by:  J. G. Mischke 

Hi All,

only a thought...

Why not? Look at netscape, since 1998 it make a great descent until it
became free and now we get firefox. What Linuxdeveloper need is a small IDE
and RAID Tool with no underlaying Active-X, COM or such stuff. I think it's
a real chance for Gupta.

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 10:53

 Posted by:  Markus Eßmayr 

Hi,

great idea, but why make it Open Source only for Linux?
I'd also welcome this step for the Windows world (of course including
ActiveX, COM, ...)!!!

Max

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 18:11

 Posted by:  Jeff Luther 

I have been reading this thread about open source of the TD product, and
feel this so-called 'great idea' needs to be put into some perspective:

I am surprised at how folks seem to forget all the problems that others
have had *programming* in TD! Witness ALL the messages from so many over
the years who are trying to deal with the basics of UI, connectivity,
the backend, table windows, OOP and classes, scoping, COM, the Windows
API and so many other issues.

Folks, TD is NOT, repeat NOT -- unlike JG's analogy below -- an end-user
product like Netscape, FireFox et al. TD is a *programming* product. And
to think that anyone who may already be struggling with learning and
using that product -- or thinks that s/he really already knows TD and
has become an 'expert' -- is now going to be able to dive into the TD
source, modify it and try to use that for their own programming needs
(as well as pass along to others) makes me shudder!

Imagine the NG traffic then!! You can't mandate who gets to 'play' with
an open source product, so how can we possibly keep an open-source TD
in the hands of the real experts only? (Or decide what's a good fix
from a bad one?) And for every expert using TD I might estimate 20? 100?
people who have more than enough on their plates in trying to learn
and use the TD product as it is.

Our true experts now on the NG already have their hands full trying
to keep up with and respond to the "Help!" msg. traffic here. Can you
imagine the additional wave of HELP! msgs. after mods. to the TD source?

Hey, TD has been in the hands of expert programmers over the years
(and I mean that sincerely - I've known and worked with some of them).
And if they still have a list of bugs to fix, are forced to withdraw
a version -- or crank out a PTF because of problems -- how on earth
can anyone expect that we 'masses' will do any better? (And maybe do
a whole lot worse.)

Of course, there are legitimate experts here who visit the Gupta NG and
who likely do have the skill set to make useful contributions to the
source. But beyond that rare hand-full, how does anyone expect to limit
those diving into the TD source to those few only? And what happens to
the rest of us when they do dive in?

It's a little like making wine: you take a taste of something, feel you
are an expert, and think: "Gee, I can do better than that!" Now... let
me put you in the role of having to put a good and consistent wine
together -- a vineyard, a solid grape varietal, workers during harvest,
a cellar, new glass and corks, an efficient bottling line, a PhD. in
vinology who has to 'balance' the grape juice s/he has with that
'taste' everyone wants -- and I will show you that "I can do better
than that" is a WHOLE LOT TOUGHER than it looks!

My 2 cents, as always, and likely to get some responses (a fire storm?)
to my response, but I think a view from that 'other side' needs to be
stated here. Again, just to keep things in perspective.

Best Regards,
Jeff @ PC Design
info: www.JeffLuther.net/gupta/

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 19:01

 Posted by:  Yoda 

Jeff wrote >>

1)In any open source project, a few people emerge who are trusted
by the rest of the community who are in charge of the project. So even
if rookies do get the TD source code, it is unlikely to get accepted by
the community. There isnt any question of "dive into TD source, modify
it and pass along to others". The same procedure of checking quality
is followed as any closed source project. If a rookie submits some
idiotic code, it is quite likely people will get skeptical about future
submissions by him/her and wont even be checked in.

2)Gupta has lost approximately 3 years of work. TD 5.0 was the only
chance they had to be taken seriously as a vendor. They are now stuck
with a 4.2 code base where you cant copy a string to a clipboard without
workarounds. Borland and VB.NET are free. How can Gupta get new customers?

3)There are dozens and dozens of "programming products" that are open
source and are managed by the coomunity. These are far far far more
complex than TD E.g. Linux, Open office.

4)The NG traffic wont be affected. Just have another forum for TD source.

5)Gupta's current resources are very limited. A new team is incharge
of the TD source now. Even hanging on to existing customers is going to
be a fight

As i mentioned, there are dozens of products infinitely complex
than TD. PostGRE is a highly scalable and a very complex database
maintained by the open source community. Dont you feel that they will
have the same problems you outlined and have succesfully managed to
overcome them?

AFAIK, there isnt a single open source product that "failed" and was
shut down. Problems get discovered and get fixed.

Best Wishes
Karthik

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 19:07

 Posted by:  Yoda 

While i have no details, Linux Torvalds used to personally check
the quality of submissions to the Linux kernel for quite sometime. So
did the original developer of MySQL.

Best Regardds
Karthik

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 19:08

 Posted by:  Yoda 

Linus I mean !

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 19:20

 Posted by:  Jim McNamara 

Well stated Jeff.

What that old saying about too many cooks in the kitchen?

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 19 Mar 2007, 22:21

 Posted by:  Jeff Luther 

K/Y - I agree, it won't be easy for Gupta. But thinking that open source
is the 'cure' sounds too easy to me. And your "dozens and dozens" being
"far far far more complex" and "dozens of products infinitely [more]
complex than TD" also sounds way too glib and pat an answer.

Perhaps you think TD is a not-so-complex product, but if the general
tenor of NG email msgs. over the years has shown anything (and I've
seen and responded to them from our own early internal Gupta BBS, to
CompuServe, to the various manifestations of this NG), it's clear that
there is *something* out there that is mighty tough about programming
a client/server application in Windows using TD.

(And that difficulty isn't simply the fact that there are bugs in the
product; the issues are much more fundamental and wide-spread than that,
and making the source available to a 'few trusted people' to improve
upon isn't any guarantee at all that these complexities of will be
reduced.)

Riding a bicycle just *looks* easy, but only as long as you already know
how.

You said below: "AFAIK, there isn't a single open source product that
"failed" and was shut down." LOL, of course not! By definition! An
open-source product isn't ever "finished" any more than a PTF is ever
the finish; there's always another PTF, always someone else ready to
step in and fix, modify or add to the product.

That is a far different model, in my opinion, than some 'entity' (manager,
programming group, company) who has to stand up and say: "Here you go!
We're done. The product is finished!", has to plant the flag and release
something 'completed'.

"Problems get discovered and get fixed." - Yes, that's what I mean, an
endless series of steps, a different model.

- Jeff

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 20 Mar 2007, 12:04

 Posted by:  Markus Eßmayr 

A fully agree with you, that TD will become very inconsistent, if everybody
could release changes for it.
But as Yoda said, if Gupty/Unify keeps control over the submitted code and
decides which changes are integrated, I believe it could work!

I don't know the internal structures of the TD development team, but as
Gupta became Centura then Gupta again and now is part of Unify, I could
imagine that all those changes also changed the dev-team. New developers
joined (they have to dig into the source too), others left (and with them
maybe detailed knowledge of the internals). And this is very expensive!

So, making it open source brings you developers that you don't have to pay
for digging into the source and you don't have to pay for the time they
spend on developing extensions or new functions.
Sure, some of them will create things, that nearly nobody needs, but others
may create great improvements. All together could help making TD some kind
of "feature complete" as far as the needs are concerned.

In the current situation I think, that Gupta will have to spend very much
money into the development of TD to bring it back to the market. Not only
for fixing the bugs that the new TD has, but also for adding new
functionality that is needed to meet current development standards.
Also ITG has cancelled the development of their products, but their
functionality also is still needed.
Sure, this will split the functions in three parts.
Part #1: Functions that work on Windows and Linux.
Part #2: Functions that work on Windows only.
Part #3: Functions that work on Linux only.
So it would still be possible to write cross platform applications, but also
use platform-specific services if you only have one OS.

What do you think!?

Max

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 20 Mar 2007, 16:27

 Posted by:  Jeff Luther 

Hi, Max:

"What do you think!?" - Perhaps there is room for volunteer help, I just don't
know. I was commenting far less from the view that "I have all the answers"
and more from trying to look a bit farther away (a "perspective") and see that
a 'simple' solution like "Let's just make it open source!" isn't so simple,
nor is it perhaps really a workable solution. At least let's look at what
is being proposed.

- Jeff

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 20 Mar 2007, 18:00

 Posted by:  Dave Rabelink 


Personally i'm not in favor of open source TD. But there are parts
which easily can be enhanced. Lets look at Team Object Manager for
example. It has been years this tool was updated. I was really annoyed
by the (visual) bugs this tool was plagued with. The only update were
new splashscreens and an updated version number.

Those bugs can be solved by volunteers, I did volunteer to get rid of
the most obvious ones, even for free. As this is a TD build
application, there should be no problem.

There are enough developers out there who have a crush on the TD
environment willing to help in some way.

Dave

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TD 5.0 for Linux as Open Source???

Post by NewsgroupServer » 20 Mar 2007, 21:35

 Posted by:  Jim McNamara 

There may be some source security issues with this one. Or maybe (more
likely) that the internal documentation or coding methods used to develop it
12-13 years ago were such that they don't want to expose their knickers. It
was developed when very few of us had really paid much attention to, or had
much faith in this new OOP stuff.

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