SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

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Poccus
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SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Poccus » 24 Jan 2020, 15:39

Sorry if this is too basic! I am an IT Business Analyst and I have been charged with developing requirements for a client that is looking to replace their Gupta SQL Windows platform. They say it’s outdated and difficult to find anyone to support it. It interfaces with 5 databases. I assume the GUI is something present in the Gupta platform? They interact with these databases through a single login where they enter applicant info, print forms and permits, schedule applicants for training courses, etc. I know nothing about the way this technology works, so I can’t even begin to research what products might work to replace it. I need someone to dumb down the way it all works together and possibly give me ideas for what to replace it with. The databases manage certification applications, certified training providers, permitting applications, and a database that houses historical information.

a_sivababu
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by a_sivababu » 26 Jan 2020, 06:15

Hi Poccus,
Good Day.
you will get more information from experts here as lot of developer who is still support to run ERP or ERP-like applications using Team Developer.

As per my understanding, Gupta Team Developer is not outdated as TD 7.3 is planned to be released this Quarter which has new nice features and the next version TD 7.4 which is windows store ready and to be launched soon which can support for Universal Windows Platform.

Reg resource support in US, I see some post in this forum about JOB opportunities in US. or, you can even post your JD here to get resources.

Reg conversion, there are conversion products in the market which will convert Team Developer to .NET but I am not sure about conversion cost and also I think you need to use their built-in framework life long. So, I doubt you hit the dead end by saying they are not supporting their framework.

if there is a constraint in the budget, this is oneway to consider though there is few other alternative ways.
1. Continue to use Team Developer if you get resources.
2. Hire open source Software ( Java, .NET, Python or NodeJS etc) resource to convert your Team Developer Server side coding. Create as a web services say REST API or GraphQL. Keep the modularity in all phases to run your application in Micro service way.
3. Call this code back to Team Developer using SalJSONSerializer and Deserialiser functions.
4. Continue the 2 and 3rd step till you complete all the server side coding.
5. your dependency in Team Developer will get reduced over the period of time .
6. Convert your front end design to Angular JS or React JS or Vue JS along with DevExtreme or Telerik for nice front end controls.

If there is no constraints on budget then you can start converting all coding at one-go.

few more information on the below discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45767&p=152678&hil ... ar#p152678

Happy to share my thoughts or support if you required.

Thanks
Siva A

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Steve Leighton
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Steve Leighton » 29 Jan 2020, 01:06

Hello Poccus,
This debate has been ebbing and flowing back and forth for at least 30 years.
And yet still the Gupta toolset continues to flourish and be developed and enhanced.

I've seen lots of arguments going on both for porting to another platform ( don't do it ! ) , or upgrading your existing ( Gupta) platform to the latest version ( do it ! ).

I agree 100% with Mr Siva A
Gupta Team Developer is not outdated as TD 7.3 is planned to be released this Quarter which has new nice features and the next version TD 7.4
TeamDeveloper is .Net enabled, UNICODE, has opensource connectivity to any RDBMS.

After 30 years, of seeing many sites waste literally $$mil trying to port to other environments, or achieving a port but the resultant code is just one big compromise, my personal ( and unbias :roll: ) advice, is to upgrade your existing Gupta platform to at least TD7.1 - AND either train, or somehow find experienced technicians who can support/develop it. They are out there. You just need to market for them properly.

Probably not what you want to hear, and I'm sure there will be lots who disagree, but this is my best opinion based on seeing lots try and go through what you are thinking of --> you should advice you customer site to get the best ROI, and simply upgrade to TD7.n

If you need help estimating for the upgrade option, contact direct. I've upgraded to a newer version many, many times with good success.

p.s. and we even support/develop (Gupta) systems remotely - works out cheaper more efficient in the long run :)
Greetings from New Zealand
Steve Leighton

Bankside Systems Ltd.
UK ♦ Australia ♦ New Zealand

www.banksidesystems.co.uk

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Poccus
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Poccus » 02 Feb 2020, 14:35

You are right, I have seen many new versions that suggest it’s not an outdated platform. After researching what my client’s ask is, it turns out they have the newer version of Gupta available but cannot deploy it until they’ve upgraded their hardware to Windows 10 as the newest version of Gupta is not compatible with their current Windows version...and their hardware won’t support Windows 10. Kind of a ripple effect. The second reason they are looking to replace it is because they are finding it too difficult to find people skilled enough to support it. They have a relatively new part-time IT person who writes queries for them, but they won’t let him touch the front end for fear of affecting their production environment. And the people who developed and managed that front end are long retired and left no documentation behind. I can’t even find any architecture designs. They purchased another Gupta license to establish a dev environment but haven’t done it yet. So, they seem to have made investments that would allow them to keep the Gupta...I guess it’s basically finding people to support it. That being said, I can’t talk them out of that reasoning, so I still need to present them some options for replacing it. I just have no starting point...I don’t know enough about the technology to know what to look for.

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Steve Leighton
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Steve Leighton » 03 Feb 2020, 01:05

.
At risk of labouring the point... if you upgraded to a later ( Gupta ) version, then you would be replacing it .

And more economic ( and less risk ) to train permanent in-house bodies in the arts of Gupta ( even if they have to be sent o'sea's for certification ), than to re-write .
Been there done that.


Be aware that although Gupta claim that the latest ver. isn't 'supported' on Win7 or Win8, it probably will work Ok. Subject to its functionality of course. That's part of the upgrade/risk analysis, done pre-upgrade.

I will now rest my case, and be quiet, knowing you have my experience-based best advice at least.
And be prepared for those doomsdayers that will tell you even Delphi or Foxpro is better. ( and they'll immediately be banned from this forum :lol: )
.
Greetings from New Zealand
Steve Leighton

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UK ♦ Australia ♦ New Zealand

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Igor Ivanovic
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Igor Ivanovic » 03 Feb 2020, 12:42

Steve Leighton wrote:
03 Feb 2020, 01:05
And be prepared for those doomsdayers that will tell you even Delphi or Foxpro is better. ( and they'll immediately be banned from this forum :lol: )
Immediatelly! :lol:
Igor Ivanovic
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Poccus
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Poccus » 03 Feb 2020, 17:26

Okay, so let's say they deploy the latest version and train someone to administer it. There are 5 DBs under it. "Cloud" is a major buzzword around here right now...is there any need or benefit in migrating those DBs to a cloud environment like AWS, or would that even work?

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Steve Leighton
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Steve Leighton » 03 Feb 2020, 19:54

Rhetorical question right? How can anyone answer that without being there or have any clue of the business environment/requirement.
Sorry. That's your department. But TeamDeveloper can connect to most RdBMS given the right parameters. Hopefully its SQLBase :D !
Greetings from New Zealand
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a_sivababu
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by a_sivababu » 04 Feb 2020, 03:49

I was using SQLBase few years back and then moved to Oracle and then moved to SQL Server but I want to move away from all commercial product to open source product. So, I have finally moved to PostgreSQL which is Object RDBMS and this is currently running from AWS-RDS (and PostgreSQL on Docker from VMs) and connecting to on-premises TD Win32 application.

The problem is that, your TD connects through ODBC and hence you will face slowness problem. Make sure that you will choose your AWS-RDS location is near to your place so that the performance will be better. But, I would suggest to covert your server coding to TD Web Services and migrate this Services(Probably micro services) to AWS-Lambda serverless so that you just keep only your front end User Interface( Win32 or WPF) in your desktop. By this way, all your business logic and data sits in the AWS (or Azure or Google Cloud) and only front end screen sits in your local desktop.

I think Gupta is also making something called Windows Store Ready in TD 7.4. So, you can push your application to windows store and customer can download it from the Windows store market as and when there is a release from your team.

As Steve said, we are happy to share our experience if we know your requirements. Learning Team Developer is not that much difficult.

Thanks
Siva A

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Steve Leighton
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Steve Leighton » 04 Feb 2020, 04:51

.
Siva says:
The problem is that, your TD connects through ODBC and hence you will face slowness problem
, but maybe consider OLE DB ? Unsure if PostgreSQL has an OLE DB driver, but SQLServer has a brand new one - and as of 2018 ODBC is deprecated by Microsoft, in favor of OLE DB, which works well with TD and the latest OLE DB drivers can certainly be tweaked to speed thing up alot - unlike ODBC.
Greetings from New Zealand
Steve Leighton

Bankside Systems Ltd.
UK ♦ Australia ♦ New Zealand

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a_sivababu
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by a_sivababu » 10 Feb 2020, 10:44

Thanks. I feel the issue is more towards to the region setup in Cloud. If I setup region in cloud which is near to my location then it is ok. I get slowness if I create centralized region for other countries support.

Reg ODBC and OLEDB supports, As per my understanding, the general ODBC driver is aligned to MS ODBC driver for SQL Server to support natively and this is supported through local and Azure and supported from all OS ( windows, Linux and MacOS) and they are committed to release newer versions too.

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... -p/1144995

may be i am missing something here as I am not following SQL Server now-a-days as I moved to PostgreSQL.

In terms of PostgreSQL supports, the ODBC driver delivered by Postgresql site which i use it and performance is good but3rd party is also providing ODBC and OLE DB driver which is also providing good performance.

Thanks.
Siva A

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Steve Leighton
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by Steve Leighton » 10 Feb 2020, 20:52

Great thanks for the new ODBC link. Interesting , and I see there is also a new OLE DB driver for Azure fixes: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... a-p/916316, so I'm going to do some comparison tests.

But I think we're now getting well away from the original subject of helping Mr Poccus with his Upgrade v Replace dilemma.
Although I do need to say I'm not so sure about your thought:
If there is no constraints on budget then you can start converting all coding at one-go.
.
Brings back awful memories of money wasting failure ( and eventually the joyful reverting back to TD upgrade as it was just sooo much easier/efficient ).
Greetings from New Zealand
Steve Leighton

Bankside Systems Ltd.
UK ♦ Australia ♦ New Zealand

www.banksidesystems.co.uk

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a_sivababu
India
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Re: SQLWindows Gupta Replacement

Post by a_sivababu » 11 Feb 2020, 06:24

Correct but there is not much information provided to share our thoughts again. I think

First, Hire the resource to keep the current application up and running. the current application can be upgraded to latest TD version as old version may not be reliable to run on newer windows version.
second, Hire resources to covert TD coding to any accepted open source software but it may eat up more time and more budget if we migrate the complex application and go-live with all modules at one-go. The project may fail if there is no proper plan.

as you suggested, my recommendation is also to run the application in latest TD version.

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