Gupta products

[fausto.lupercio]

Good afternoon dear friends.

I think it is the time that Opentext owner of GUPTA reveals its pricing policy, Visual Studio Professional is for $ 500 and $ 250 promotion ... and more now that there are many free development tools ... I still believe that the concept of the products of GUPTA is wonderful ... but new generations do not know these products ... those of us who are still with GUPTA are over 50 years of age ... and after us I don't know who they are ... I think GUPTA cannot go disappearing ...

Thanks
Fausto.

[a_sivababu]

Agreed Fausto.

This is one way to increase presence in the market. I think Team Developer and Team Developer .NET does not require any more support for new controls. My suggestion is to make TDMobile as enterprise class applications and then provide support to covert Team Developer coding to TDMobile coding through Conversion tool. If the tool supports to convert 80% of the coding then i think it should be OK. I think the cost of the TDMobile can be retained or increased from this level if it supports above said requirement.

Thanks
Siva A

[visionpro]

I agree.
I think its time for you and for the others on this forum who have very long experience on Gupta products to talk to Open Text about converting existing Team developer desktop applications to .NET / TD mobile with minimum development.
At the moment its very painful to re-write all codes on TD mobile /.NET


Kind Regards

Samad

[Giorgio Bravi]

Hello to all
I also believe a new policy should be made to bring as many people as possible to Team Developer.
Today the biggest problem for us is finding people with experience in TD or at least motivating their learning.
Here in Italy it is mostly an unknown product despite its enormous potential.
We have achieved productivity unthinkable for other environments (ok we have completely written the class framework).
A "transparent" migration to .NET would be the minimum.
I remember in the past the Tomahawk project for Java compatibility soon abandoned ... I would not want the same thing to happen for .NET.

Giorgio

[aspurga]

During the long history of the Gupta Company, there have been only a few at a time when company executives were open about the future of their products. In all other cases, especially now that Gupta has been acquired by OpenText, there is total disrespect for its loyal developers who keep them financially. Developers know better what they need, but now there is no way to say it. A blind policy leading to a further decrease in Gupta product use. Looks like they don't even want to talk about that with the developers. Only an open discussion with our loyal consumers about the future of the products, perhaps opening some of the products in open source, can strengthen Gupta's product market position. Otherwise, the agony of the Gupta will continue.

Arunas

[Uwe van der Horst]

Arunas, there are certainly some things that "Gupta" can be accused of. But from my point of view, you couldn't say that the company's executives ignore customer requests. We have a support contract that we can use to discuss well with Gupta about our requirements. And the annual Devdays here in Germany and other places are a good opportunity to discuss e.g. with the product manager Martin Teetz and others. There ARE ways that you can use for discussions.

[Steve Leighton]

.
Every year. For the last 30. The same old doomsday merchants.

Mr Arunas - If it truly is such 'agony' - you're doing it wrong.

Martin Teetz and Helmut Reimann do a fab job keeping us informed with communications, and on Youtube.
And Mark Woodford is very amenable and very approachable to talk about most things Gupta related. From anywhere in the world.
You just need to make a small effort and talk ( not gripe ) to them.

In fact Helmut has recently published 'OpenText Gupta State of the Union' ( attached). So I really don't know what you are talking about.

I'll bet 100 to 1 that none of the pessimists have:
- Contributated anything to our SQLWindows - SQLBase - TD.Net Users & Developers Network channel: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/144210/
- Contributed anything to our TDCommunity wiki https://wiki.tdcommunity.net/index.php/TipHistory
- Contributed anything to our Community Samples vault: https://samples.tdcommunity.net/
- Contributed any $$ to the actual running of this forum, or the excellent plugins constantly being developed such as M!Tbl and TDAppTools.

Certainly words like 'agony' will do little to encourage positivity with the toolset - the very thing you seem to be complaining about.
.

[Userj]

Hi

I probably shouldn't say anything about it, but I do it anyway, maybe it's all just nonsense.

What do you expect ? That the audience will join in the choir and call hurray? Does that bring you anything?
I understand that the whole thing has to be financed somehow, but you should be glad that there are still people who have to deal with Gupta, criticize it and who place the Armageddon horse in front of the door.
At the moment I have no time to work on the wiki or to bring in samples (TDSamples, what an unsorted grave), especially since no one can have the feeling that this is desired.
Listen, our software is simply buried to grave in the short term if we cannot switch to TD7.NET. If the Gupta conversion-results from .NET to Win32 are poor, slow and inflexible, we have a problem, whereby I can exclude high expenses for external service providers .
Unfortunately it is not possible to provide comprehensible examples for the bigger problems, so I cannot report about them to Opentext.
It would be necessary for Opentext to look directly on our sources to be aware and to change something but how is that supposed to work? But honestly I can’t imagine any great, ingenious solutions.
So I only have to post here about the bigger problems, always hoping that something will change and I can free myself from my personal Guptanamo without changing my job (would be advisable).
Problems like unusable debugger in the TD7.NET-IDE, unusable CompileAndEvaluate and missing modularity of the resulting applications are existential for us. Additional to that unfortunately the IDE behaves much worse under .NET than under Win32 and we will not make a step backwards to switch to a more modern technology.

M! Tbl and TDAppTools may be great under Win32 and my colleagues are enthusiastic about it, but a .NET alternative is far away, or I'm wrong.

[H3PO4]

Hi,

I think its not all as black as Jörg painted.

First of all, I don't think of TDSamples as an unsorted grave. Yes, some of the samples are outdated but many of the samples are a light especially for 'rookies'.
And yes, for most of the companies I am working the movement is away from TD Developer.

For me, Team Developer is a great development system. Most of the needs can be done out of the box with a lack of prettyness . So, why does it seem to be a dead end way?

At all I think, if OpenText wants to 'make it great again', there must be some more advertising (its not so easy to google to the OpenText TDDevelopers home) and modernizing.
And yes - a better communication with longterm developers would not be bad.

This forum - thank you so much Dave - should be a required reading for OpenText and - why not - a communication platform with us.

After working with Team Developer since 1992 I still am enthusiastic!

Regards
Henning

[Riuks]

Agreed Fausto.

This is one way to increase presence in the market. I think Team Developer and Team Developer .NET does not require any more support for new controls. My suggestion is to make TDMobile as enterprise class applications and then provide support to covert Team Developer coding to TDMobile coding through Conversion tool. If the tool supports to convert 80% of the coding then i think it should be OK. I think the cost of the TDMobile can be retained or increased from this level if it supports above said requirement.

Thanks
Siva A

Im totally agree with this statement.
Im working with TD since 2003 (TD5.2 to TD7.3) and i started feel pressure move development output desktop to web.

I think that developing win32 and TD.net desktop is a dead end.
TD.NET is buggy and not for enterprise level.

Not a singe innovator today would not buy a software, things changing so fast, to risky to buy.... better choice is rent.

Go for software as a service (SaaS), platform as a service (PaaS) or information system as a service (Paas).


But go with desktop solutions to a rental ??!! - installation starts and story will end- try to manage many work computers remotely - it's a headache ... and expensive.
Another problem here is that there is no way to find developers who write SAL code on the fly , and if, new ones do not get good understanding TD platform..
TD (and also TDM) dev interfaces is so different from other develepment platforms and first look may seems confusing (point is how to code in Eclipse, Visual Studio and Delpi looks similar ).

Thus, it is high time to find a solution to upgrade from the TDx.x version to the server solution, so that the end user would not have to deal with the annoying installation before starting the software. Then you could already create solutions that start selling themselves online, but in the meantime, we'll hire a salesman who's going to show you solutions from your laptop - all of this seems like a 1992 year. : S .


Sad story because thousands of hours have been spent to desktop application development but it will be forgotten in the coming years as it is no longer needed - all must be inside browser, accessible from desktop computers to mobile devices and platform independent- apple, windows and linux.
The longer it goes, the more IT sits with its activities on the cloud platforms, be it Azure, Amazon or its own web development platform.

TD and TDM have one big advantage -this is a time to create something new - another words no bricks and cement but walls, windows and doors. But with limitation....if you need to create something out of box then feel like on railway- hard to turn without rails.

[Userj]

I dont agree with these statements.
So since I and my TD.Win32->TD.NET conversion project are still alive I have to give something needless from myself again.

"Another problem here is that there is no way to find developers who write SAL code on the fly , and if, new ones do not get good understanding TD platform."
Sorry, but this is a joke, or ? SAL code is absolutely easy and is made for none-developers who want fastly build professional database- and web-based applications. If new employees do not get any idea of the TD platform they should also never touch any other IT-platform
I know these IT-people thinking about Gupta as an strange unpleasant disease and therefore would never touch it, but these are probably less IT freaks then unimaginative aesthete, that hide behind thousands of books, inefficient gossip and the pseudo-complexity of their code.

From my view TDMobile is far away from being a replacement for TD-Win32, so the only way is to convert your TD-Win32 code to TD.NET and then eventually use TDMobile. So to me if TD.NET Desktop is a dead end then the whole Team Developer solution is dead, which of course hopefully will not happen, even if I sometimes wish for it.

I still cant believe that there are no developers at Opentext/Gupta who can build a working TD7.NET-CAE-Gupta-Scripting language and an userfriendly working IDE optimized for modularization and performance. Yes, recently there were many bugfixes and the development-teams seems to be very dedicated to their tool, but I still miss the big groundbreaking things like a perfectly working debugging environment (I hate the "external code" message) with small memory usage (>2GB ? I hate this), builds which are optimized for modularization, more flexability by less dependencies to used external frameworks (ae Telerik 2014 - a 5 years old grid component ? unbelievable, since the grid is the most important TD-component), a Gupta-scripting engine and an expandable IDE with better performance and filtering options. Look at a tool like dnSpy this OpenSource-tool works perfectly why not the commercial IDE TD.NET ?

So if you believe or not, I believe that a small fast handy error-resistant TD7.NET in combination with TDMobile will be an useful development environment with an extensable market, but only if finally someone take the effort and fix the bad problems, what looks doable.

[Riuks]

Agree or not but trend is desktop application to web application. Thats fact for me!
If u not agree with that , ok, i will no more want to be
to argue, let it be... you may be as usual desktop application developer. My respect, but in new market gain no money on that!

[Userj]

Agree or not but trend is desktop application to web application. Thats fact for me!
If u not agree with that , ok, i will no more want to be
to argue, let it be... you may be as usual desktop application developer. My respect, but in new market gain no money on that!

Why should TD7.NET only be for desktop development? Of course you can use it to create desktop applications,
but you can also use it to create dll-s and web services.
So, how can I transform the complex business logik of my TD-Win32 application to a web application? (com-Server ?)
A new development with TD-Mobile? I tried to import the existing 300-apls into the IDE and it collapsed.
In my view, a 1-click conversion with TD7-NET would be more helpful, since I can use the resulting assemblies in TDMobile.

[Riuks]

Ok. If u want create dll then what benefit it gaves u create it in td vs visual studio.
Is td free? - no
Is in td easier to find a snippet wrom web? - no
If u need dll and u already have an td licenced version and also visual studio (free in many cases) - compare now which developer u find from open market to do it? td or vs?

0:3 I guess.

Anyway, i guess dll may can live own life for years but i pointed especially to applications - td win32 created applications and td.net applications (also web applications due support only ie) which will be die in next 5 years cos no conversion to cloud (web).
If im not correct then please point me how i can convert my n+ solutions to web and sales departnent can monetize those in rental plan.

[Userj]

Ok. If u want create dll then what benefit it gaves u create it in td vs visual studio.
Is td free? - no
Is in td easier to find a snippet wrom web? - no
If u need dll and u already have an td licenced version and also visual studio (free in many cases) - compare now which developer u find from open market to do it? td or vs?

0:3 I guess.

Anyway, i guess dll may can live own life for years but i pointed especially to applications - td win32 created applications and td.net applications (also web applications due support only ie) which will be die in next 5 years cos no conversion to cloud (web).
If im not correct then please point me how i can convert my n+ solutions to web and sales departnent can monetize those in rental plan.

Hm ?
Is the code written in C# ? No it's TD Win32-code - yes
Can I find the TD-code on my computer ? - yes
Can I move the code to TD.NET, then to C# and then to web or desktop ? - yes
Am I caught in Guptananmo and living my live as Count of Monte SAL ? - yes

Still 0:3

Why should td.net-assemblies die in next 5 years ? They contain only server-side business-logic and will still work in cloud environment. If
I need something special I can use the dll-s in VS, especially since I can decompile the dlls relatively easily to C# . I also think that I have read somewhere that there are plans to support .NET-Core and UWP in new versions of TD.NET.

If it would and had be my application I would have converted it to Java 15 years ago, but "This is not a wish concert" (J Klopp)