Progress is impossible without change (2000-2005) & (2005-2010)

Progress is impossible without change

Post by vish » 22 Jul 2003, 09:14

 Posted by:  vish 

Hi Friends

Presently my Bread & Butter is from Centura.
But I feel insecure when I think of the future.



Progress is impossible without change

Post by skr » 22 Jul 2003, 09:28

 Posted by:  skr 


I am also sailing in the same boat. Scared to hug other technology . Fully
insecured in the current market without move. Centura addicted in the body
and soul, not able to move. But without move is a big QUESTION MARK ?

Hope you will find some solution and passon for me to overcome..........


Posts: 1434
Joined: 04 Apr 2017, 08:56
Location: Geneva

Progress is impossible without change

Post by Mirko » 22 Jul 2003, 11:04

 Posted by:  Mirko BONANNO 

Same as above but...

Current market moves far too much (actually I would say that it shakes) but
did not take a definite direction yet (did it ?)

I hope Centura will cach the right one (direction) ;-)

my 1 & 1/2 Cts


CW Stevenson

Progress is impossible without change

Post by CW Stevenson » 29 Aug 2003, 19:40

 Posted by:  CWStevenson 

If you read this as a pure technical wannabe - or, you think you're a
technical god already, then don't bother reading it. But if you are
interested the realities of life and how they apply to technology and the
economy and to the future of technology, I think the following could be of
interest to you.

Hype vs Reality --

When .NET was first announced, there were industry pundits and yes, many
members of these news groups that quickly forecasted the end of GUPTA
(please stop using Centura - it brings back so many bad memories). But .NET
has not put GUPTA out of business and it has in fact done just the opposite.

1). Microsoft will eventually get it right. But not usually until the third

The first release of .NET was, well, a pretty dismal failure as admitted by
MS insiders. But the second release is looking much better, but there is
still much ground to be covered before it is widely adopted. There is the
fact that MS still has not surfaced all the features and functionality to
third party vendors, GUPTA being one of them. Our .NET data provider has
some weaknesses in usability because MS has not made the libraries available
to anyone outside of MS. So you will see some SQLServer functionality
inside VS.NET that you won't see from other providers. MS is working to
address this issue, but the effort is massive, and it will take some time.
MS themselves have not fully converted all their applications to .NET for a
number of reasons, some simply have to do with time and effort, others have
to do with technical limitations and I think you will see the
interoperability between COM and .NET get much better since MS themselves
will have to use it as well.

Finally, .NET has to prove itself over-again. Many large corporate
organizations tested .NET and, invested heavily in some pilot projects -
only to run into numerous problems where .NET did not work as "stated" and,
the stability was very poor. One of the largest on-line retailers attempted
to get .NET to run a small portion of their business and could not get it to
run for more than about 50 minutes before it would crash.

Now, to be sure, these will all be fixed, and .NET will be a very cool place
to be when they are fixed. So, when will this be? Longhorn most likely and
that's why you've not seen GUPTA jump on .NET bandwagon just yet. My
approach is to let it settle down, let other find the issues of instability
and let MS address some of issues of easing migration before we take it for
a ride.

Now, what about those Visual Basic programmers that were blind sighted by
.NET? After all, they have no choice but to become object oriented - and
many have chosen NOT to do the .NET dance. In fact, many have seen Team
Developer as an attractive alternative to being forced into .NET. And we
Welcome all VB programmers and will work to make their transition as
painless as possible. (A very interesting twist to be sure. But I like it.)

2). JAVA vs. .NET

.NET actually lost a lot of ground in large corporate users due in large
part to the comments above. JAVA has some severe weaknesses as well, in
particular an anemic GUI and, it still is not write once-deploy everywhere.
But, it has gained ground on the server-side processing and it will continue
to grow by leaps and bounds here until .NET can show some real programming
advantage over J2EE.

Bottom-line, most shops will have J2EE (Java) and .NET working together.

Why is it so different from just a few years ago?

Why it is different now than it was in 1998? It may be too obvious, but
business drives the need for technology - not the other way around. But in
the time period from late 1997 to about 2000, some people forgot this
fundamental law and, they started to let technology drive the need for
technology -- Never a good thing. Those days are long-gone and today, if a
technology does not significantly contribute to business objectives it is
irrelevant. And, it does not matter what the programmer that wants to use
it thinks. So a programmer may want to build up his or her CV/Resume by
using .NET, but if the management knows that the application would be better
built in GUPTA's Team Developer, well, Team Developer it should be.

So, with Team Developers 3.1's many new features, and, the improved speed
and stability since the 2.1 release, you really can develop applications
much faster than you can on .NET or other tools. And, if you want a
low-cost, low-risk path to .NET, stay with GUPTA for the Team Developer.NET

Really, it comes down to common sense. GUPTA continues today because we add
significant value to businesses that develop and deploy applications based
on GUPTA technology. Otherwise, we would have gone out of business a long
time ago. We are now entering a time when there is resurgence in interest
in GUPTA as an independent software vendor that provides tools to rapidly
develop applications and, to safely and easily move to .NET.

Ivar M. Yrke

Progress is impossible without change

Post by Ivar M. Yrke » 01 Sep 2003, 11:33

 Posted by:  Ivar M. Yrke 

This triggers a lot of comment and since I don't know where best to start,
find my comments scattered.

"CWStevenson" skrev i melding
" The customer is always right" I learned when I was young. Of coarse I have
learned that this is not true and I am more than happy as a customer to
argue when the salesperson makes the impression of actually knowing what
(s)he is talking about. But I also become very sceptical when the
salesperson takes on arrogance to protect his view or disguise his/her
I think Gupta should be very careful talking about hypes. As commented by
many participants on the newsgroups the introduction of hype technology in
TD the last few years is part of TD's problem. While putting a lot of effort
into COM, web etc. the "old" functionality of the product has been more or
less neclected. Not saying these are not important, just stating that
traditional programming is still the majort part of a major project.
I agree that the tools for developing .NET applications, including the .NET
runtime itself, need to prove their usability and reliability. However, I do
not think the problems of the first version is enough to scare people away
from .NET. The basic philosophy and good ideas presented and the credibility
in MS that they will eventually make it work is what attracts people.
Unfortunately Gupta does not have this credibility.
VB developers who do not wish to go OO go to TD? Interesting, but is it
really a tribute to TD? Have you considered the possibility that the fact
that TD is in the class of VB (pre .NET) may be more of a drawback than a
benefit? Many of the requests and comments I have seen on TD over the years
relate to lack of modern concepts, which you now can find in e.g. C# (or
Nice theory, but fact is that significant examples can be mentioned where
the step from Unix/C++ to C#.NET has been decided over the heads of the
developers. My brother was a "victim" of such a decision and believe me, he
does not miss any oportunity to throw hostile remarks on MS, Windows or VS.
I believe this when I see it and that is the credibility of Gupta at the
moment. I have heard it so many times and become disappointed. Not that
Gupta is lying. It is just that when we eventually get the new version the
new features are not as useful as assumed. Typical examples would be the
Active coding assistant introduced in TD30 or the ability to edit more than
one source file in the same instance of TD. And although the new debugging
features are good improvements they still have a way to go to get decent.
My comments may sound very negative and in a way they are meant to be. In
spite of this I really wish TD could be improved to keep up. It is just that
I fear time is running out and our new platform decision is coming closer.
But I am quite confident that if that decision had to be made today it would
not have been to the benefit of TD.

Jim McNamara

Progress is impossible without change

Post by Jim McNamara » 03 Sep 2003, 16:46

 Posted by:  Jim McNamara 

Where have you guys been??

Centura is DEAD. It died in June of 2001 when mBrain(sp?) filed bankruptcy.
Fortunately, they sold TD and SQLBase to Platinum a few months before going

The new GUPTA Technologies, LLC has released more new versions of these
products, with very high quality, than Centura did in the 6 years before

I almost bailed out in 1999-2000 as it was obvious the business plan at
Centura did not include moving forward with Team Developer and SQLBase.
But, I hung in because I thought the tool set had a great foundation (left
over from Umang Gupta's vision) and that when Centura failed, someone would
see the value of the products and the vision to build a business around
them. No, it will never be a Fortune 500 company (like the investment
bankers that were running Centura wanted), but there are 10's of thousands
of worthwhile, thriving businesses that are not in the Fortune 500.

I'm glad I gutted it out. Those that bailed are now rewriting their apps
for the 3rd time. I have one application that was written in 1995 (SW5.x)
that is running under TD 3.0 on XP. Not a single line of code in that app
has been touched since it first went into production.

Hats off to Mr. Stevenson, Mr. Teetz, and several others that have been
driving forces in reviving a SqlWindows and SQLBase.

Keep up the good work.


Progress is impossible without change

Post by Bob » 02 Jul 2004, 14:36

 Posted by:  Bob 

Mr. Stevenson,

You (and Gupta) have deluded yourself if you really believe that "the
large majority of customers are very happy with the progress...". I have
been forced to use Gupta products since '93 by companies who have spent
millions of dollars trying to figure out how to get away from them. The
"large majority" of Gupta customers are no longer Gupta customers!

This is not meant to be demeaning either, but I think if the team at
Gupta were to wake up and see where their products really are, it 'might' be
able to recover. For over 10 years now, I've been waiting to see the same
old problems with the development interface corrected. How many more
versions will be released before my screen doesn't go font-haywire every
time I switch between a Gupta product and any other application?

As a knowledgeable and skilled developer in several languages, how come
I can quickly and easily develop a multi-tier and/or COM+ application in VB,
yet still have multiple problems with the same implementation in Gupta?
Currently, I'm struggling with Event handling in a Gupta client app
accessing a COM+ class. I know the object is sending the events (because I
put message boxes in the COM+ object just to make sure), but the Gupta app
still doesn't receive them. I wrote the same client interface in VB, and
the events work fine. I would check the Gupta documentation, if there was
any to speak of besides the one paragraph in the books online dedicated to
'event handling'.

Well, I've said my peace, so back I go to my Gupta application that
won't work, while we quickly move all of our development to JAVA. In the
meantime, if I can't get TD to do what it says it will, I will use VB to
save my employer time and money.


Posts: 1434
Joined: 04 Apr 2017, 08:56
Location: Geneva

Progress is impossible without change

Post by Mirko » 02 Jul 2004, 16:05

 Posted by:  Mirko BONANNO 

Hi Bob,
I belive that to develop some M$ crap (COM, COM+, DCOM, ...) the best dev
product will certenly be a M$ one !

Maybe you could tell us about a NO-M$ dev tool that have no problems with M$
crap (COM, COM+, DCOM, ...)

Wish you the best M$ programmer life

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