Microsoft a Marketing machine (2000-2005) & (2005-2010)
Bud Ingraham

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Bud Ingraham » 29 Aug 2001, 00:14

 Posted by:  Bud Ingraham 

“Nothing from their technologies works really good, indeed they never
( DDE, OLE, OCX ... ). It is all Marketing and will ever be!”

“That's just a bunch of hooey. They may start out as marketing, but
these technologies do work.”

Looking back through the history, I have seen about 5 different methods
of accessing data coming out of the Microsoft camp. All of these
methods are inferior to the method that the early SQLWindows team put
together. It is FAR easier, and has always been quicker to access data
using the native Gupta routers than anything that Microsoft dreamed up.
Remember the JET engine – STILL makes me shutter when I think about it.

On a different vein – DDE – that was pretty good “hope and pray”
technology. ActiveX is nothing more than a mature OLE. Give Microsoft
10 years, and they just might get a technology half decent. Of course,
at that stage, they will dump it, and steer you to another new and buggy
technology. This is how they make money! They get a standard going,
and just when everybody has converted to it – they switch to another
technology. There is very little money to be made after everybody
switches. This is why when they finally got ODBC stabilized, and
everyone using it in some manner – they abandon it and no longer support
it – ie – no more quick money in it for them.

Yes, Microsoft DOES know how to market. We are all talking about .Net
technology, and NOT even Microsoft can accurately specify what it is!
Hey, hey, but they do have us talking about it, and afraid that we will
“miss the boat”. Their gooooood at this……

Martin Knopp

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Martin Knopp » 29 Aug 2001, 07:35

 Posted by:  Martin Knopp 

Second try of typing my response (I had finished the first but this
super-damn, crappy Outlook Express crashed milliseconds before I could send

Here we go:

I agree with you that MS did and does produce a lot f technologies that are
(lets be kind) technically weak. Anyway their marketing machine will
explaing 99.9+% of all people and 99.99+% of all decision makers why they
need exactly this technologiy. Face it as it is!

To fight this marketing machine is a job for Sun, IBM, Oracle but definitely
not for Centura! Well maybe it could have been if Gupta/Centura didn't make
those 1000+ wrong decisions in the past 5-7 years but its definitely not

So Centura today has three choices:

1. Join the Sun, IBM, Oracle Java train - quite far away from where they are
today so unlikely to be successful
2. Join the MS .NET train - sounds great for me even so it would require
quite some work very soon to not loose the timeframe
3. Keep CTD as it is today hunting for niches and the 0.01-% of decision
makers that not got addressed by the MS, Sun, IBM, Oracle marketing
machines. So this niches get crunchued up between MS and Sun, IBM, Oracle
leaving less space every day. Thats where we are today!! Do we like it?? I
don't like to see the shrinking market share of Centura and that cannot be
resolved by fixing bugs and performance!

BTW: .NET has one major advantage against the other technologies MS came up
in the past. It has a new language C# which is way better (at least could be
with some frameworks and IDE improvements making it even simplier) suited
for easy and productive development of business logic than C++ is today. I
never seriously talk about VB for business logic, maybe for windows GUI

Martin Knopp, Dipl. Ing.
fecher GmbH / Österreich
Geschäftsführer / Managing Director
phone: +43-1-3199124-0
fax: +43-1-3199124-80

Posts: 329
Joined: 21 Mar 2017, 13:05
Location: Bremen, Germany

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Didiman » 29 Aug 2001, 10:11

 Posted by:  Andreas Neugebauer 

I think Bud has worked it out real clear. Going the M$ way means running
with their marketing machine.

Every Developer who wants to create real stable Products is wise to _not_
use the latest M$ - Technologies. Running the technologie discussion will
kill CTD at least, 'cause M$ has much more power to create new, useless
technologies as Centura can implement them.

So, let's spread of the capabilities of CTD and move to a wider range of
plattforms. Support Linux een with KDE / GNOME UI. That's what the User


Ralf Gronkowski

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Ralf Gronkowski » 29 Aug 2001, 21:41

 Posted by:  Ralf Gronkowski 


the vast majority of users of GUI based commercial applications wants
Windows and not KDE or Gnome i'm afraid. Linux on the desktop is very much
irrelevant. Ignoring that does not help.

And on the server, if you want platform independence for your components,
you better go Java and not native Linux. So, to be perfectly honest with
you, i'd suggest, you better free up the space on SourceForge occupied by
KTD. I really think it does not lead anybody anywhere.

Sorry for being so rude.

Posts: 329
Joined: 21 Mar 2017, 13:05
Location: Bremen, Germany

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Didiman » 30 Aug 2001, 10:37

 Posted by:  Andreas Neugebauer 


who's ignoring what ?

IMHO is the centura/gupta/mbrane management ignoriering the market needs for
the last 5-8 years.

I think it's not the user need to "Windows" (tm), it's the users need to
fully functional tools. It's not the brand of the tool, that makes it
wothfull, it's the benefit the user has of the of the tool.

So, don't you think there is a market for full functional multi plattform
ERP-Software based on Centura ?

I think so, and i would be the first running it on my company.

So i think SourceForge can live with the little project, wasting their

WIth people thinking like you, Linux would never have become that strong it
is today.

BTW: No one says, that Java can not be within the same boat.

sorry for being "polemisch"


Jürgen G. Mischke

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Jürgen G. Mischke » 30 Aug 2001, 12:37

 Posted by:  Jürgen G. Mischke 

Hi Ralf,

is today.

good words.

I really heared that words of some big databases some years ago. 'What is
Linux?? Haha. Try it on Windows 3.11'

And now. I get any Database I want (without Sqlbase, but makes nothing,
because there's a lot of good databases like PostgreSQL) under Linux.

Who needs all the MS stuff. Nobody without MS. Customers wants an easy to
use plattform with working programms without blue screens. Java is to big
and MS didn't like it (and didn't support it in XP)

Perl, Phyton and PHP for the web, CDT for coloured buttons to click for
clients and linux as db-server.

I think, Centura is a real american product, which will ignore reality for a
long time. There's a lot of developing people, who needs a good 4GL-Tool for
Linux and I can use Magic, Omnis, but not CTD. Make a Linuxversion without
all the MS-things,nobody need it. Keep out ActiveX and set take an old CDT
Version to convert to linux. (And don't think, you cann't get some money for
a Linux-software. You can!) Centura lost their visions.


Bud Ingraham

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Bud Ingraham » 30 Aug 2001, 20:49

 Posted by:  Bud Ingraham 


Currently, I am using Apache and PHP4 in a Windows environment, and it works
beautifully. Ok, I will admit that I ran into one bug, but it was very easy to
write around. I am very impressed with the quality of the two products, and the
amount of support these products are getting from many, many vendors.

“Java is to big and MS didn't like it (and didn't support it in XP)”

This kind of tells a big story on just how far Microsoft will let competitors
play in their sandbox.

Actually, your thoughts on a Linux version of CTD are quite interesting, and you
are right, Centura could make some money.

“Centura lost their visions.”

The last time I talked with Earl, was about two weeks before he left Centura. I
tried to convince him to push ahead with Tomahawk, but he kept insisting that
you “could buy a Java IDE for $10, so what’s the point.” His attitude and
vision certainly seemed to have gone “walk-about”. Well, I’m sure that
Borland’s JBuilder ( several hundreds of dollars per copy and up ), Oracle with
JDeveloper, and IBM with their expensive Java products are certainly happy not
to have an additional competitor in the high-end market.

BTW, I have not tried PostgreSQL – you indicated that it was pretty good. Do
you find it as easy to use and strong as SQLBase?

Also, just out of interest, as we are mentioning open-sourced databases,
Borland’s Interbase is now open-sourced. The open-source version is called
Phoenix ( named after a legendary Arabian bird said to periodically burn itself
to death and emerge from the ashes as a new phoenix – appropriate – huh?! ).
The database is both freely open-sourced and sold by Borland. So, if a company
wishes to have a “corporately supported” version, they can purchase it from
Borland, else, you can freely download a copy of Phoenix. Interesting concept.

Jürgen G. Mischke

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Jürgen G. Mischke » 04 Sep 2001, 12:51

 Posted by:  Jürgen G. Mischke 

Hi Bud,

now I have a lot of expierence with PostgreSQL and I think it would be
better than Sqlbase. It's better for the web, PHP, Perl and Python and using
ODBC it makes no problems unter CDT. (OK, there's some little bugs, but
Hiroshi Inoue is a specialist for ODBC and PostgreSQL and he looks to the


Michael W. Dietrich

Microsoft a Marketing machine

Post by Michael W. Dietrich » 09 Sep 2001, 21:46

 Posted by:  Michael W. Dietrich 

I totally agree with you Ralf and to make it even more clear: "Linux on the
Desktop" is just marketing but lacking the machine that Bud claimed MS has.

BTW: Hi Bud, nice to see you're still around.


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